I would like to give a shout-out to Roy Ingle for the kind email he sent my way:
Hey brother! I just wanted to say that I enjoy your blog. Despite the fact that I am not a Calvinist, I enjoy your site and have pointed others to it.
Your Brother in Christ,
Roy Ingle
The Seeking Disciple
www.arminiantoday.blogspot.com
I cannot overstate my appreciation for Roy's comments. It's very edifying to know that someone sitting on the other side of the soteriological fence would enjoy this blog. I think that it says much about the fact that while we disagree, we can do so with the knowledge that we are brothers in the faith after all is said and done. And because Roy was kind enough to recommend this blog to others, I'll link to his blog under the heading of "Arminian blogs of interest".
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
18 comments:
Justin says...
Hey, J. Matthew. I am glad to hear you have a friend on the other side of the fence, as you put it. I have that also, except not in the blogging sphere, only in personal relations. My youth group leader, not the pastor (although I don't know what my youth pastor is), is nonReformed. When we had our first huge discussion on the doctrines of grace, I was pretty young in the faith and didn't understand my position as well as I do now, but I knew that what he was saying went against Scripture. However, we have still had a great relationship.
Currently there is a day dedicated to discussing theology, which is coming up pretty soon, and I look forward to that.
Anyway, thanks for the encouraging post! :)
Hi Justin,
Thank you for the kind words and I hope your upcoming discussion on theology goes well!
Cheers!
JMattC
By affirming him as a brother in Christ I assume you believe Arminians are true Christians who aren't resting in their own works though many of them would confess it is up to individuals to exercise their own faith in Christ for salvation.
David McCrory
The Reformed Puritan
Justin says...
David, you have raised an issue that I am always wrestling with. At some points I feel as if Arminians are not to be counted as Christians, because of their lack of biblical theology concerning salvation. And then I feel at other points that they are true Christians because Christ didn't say we have to be Calvinists, we just have to believe and obey Him (which us Reformed Christians believe He enables us to do). In the end, I usually return to Spurgeon's words on how he believes even Wesley, the king of Arminians, will be in Heaven. But it is still a matter that I am willing to discuss.
Just out of curiousity, what is the point of your statement, anyway?
Peace and grace, brother.
Hi David,
"By affirming him as a brother in Christ I assume you believe Arminians are true Christians who aren't resting in their own works..."
You bring up an interesting question, one that I've seen discussed before. One thing I would say immediately is that even though I believe that they are indeed resting in their own works as you put it, they sincerely do not believe that salvation is theirs by works. They would emphatically declare that they are saved through faith alone in Christ alone.
Also, it seems to me that if we deny Arminians (and those non-Calvinists who hold to much of what Arminians believe) as being our brothers in the faith, are we not then excluding everyone as our brothers? Are we prepared to accept the notion that only Calvinists are saved? Is the dividing line to be drawn at whether or not someone accepts all five points of Calvinism?
Justin,
"At some points I feel as if Arminians are not to be counted as Christians,..."
I know what you mean Justin. That thought has crossed my mind as well but in regards to a different matter. In my interaction with non-Calvinsts I have come across some of the most vitriolic statements against God and his sovereignty, some of which are documented here on this blog. I natually ask myself how those who profess to be His children can curse Him as if they were His enemies?
"Christ didn't say we have to be Calvinists, we just have to believe and obey Him"
~ This is the point of my comment. If the Scriptures are clear on anything, it is we are saved by the sovereign grace of God alone (Calvinism, as you call it). Yet many who affirm this still make room for those who don't. Where do we draw the line?
I fear there are many who call themselves Christians whose faith is not in Christ, but rather their faith is in their faith being in Christ. See the difference?
"One thing I would say immediately is that even though I believe that they are indeed resting in their own works as you put it, they sincerely do not believe that salvation is theirs by works."
~ So which is of the greater eternal consequence? The fact that they ARE resting in their works, or the fact they are decieved and really don't believe they are?
The Reformed Puritan
David McCrory
David,
Let me clarify a prvious statement if I may. When I say that Arminians are "resting in their works", I am referring only to acts of the will as opposed to physical acts.
Also, your statement about Arminians having "faith in faith" is interesting but I'm not sure if it would hold up. An Arminian would almost certainly object to the charge that the object of their faith is their own faith rather than Christ and would charge you with offering a straw-man argument. How would you go about substantiating your charge?
And just so that we don't have any misunderstandings here David, what is it that you are arguing for? Is it your contention that Arminians and those who espouse most of that viewpoint are not christians? Or, are you merely exploring the question itself?
I'm not arguing for anything. It caught my attention that you addressed a confessed Arminian, not someone who simply doesn't understand the biblical teachings of soteriology, but someone who understands and assents to an opposing view of yours, a Christian brother.
Let me say, I believe there are many Christian people who will never completely realize the full extent of this debate and yet live full joyful godly lives saved by Jesus Christ. In those cases, I believe God is working by His grace in spite of their lack of knowledge and understanding of these things.
But when you start speaking of those who know the issues, have studied the various biblical teachings, rejected the sovereignty of God over their salvation, denied the efficaious call/work of the Spirit, and fully believe their election was based upon some precondition they met that caused God to redeem them, I truly believe you've encounted a different type of person who has rejected the Gospel, as they've come to understand it.
To whom much is given, much is required.
So it was more of an observation than anything. What are your thoughts?
David McCrory
The Reformed Puritan
Justin says...
Sorry I can't take the full time to respond. I'll try to later this afternoon.
~~~
"In my interaction with non-Calvinsts I have come across some of the most vitriolic statements against God and his sovereignty, some of which are documented here on this blog. I natually ask myself how those who profess to be His children can curse Him as if they were His enemies?"
It does make you wonder. I think, though, it is more of a matter of persons and not denominations. For example, I could point out to you a few Arminians who, although I feel incorrect in their theology, still praise and adore God. And then I could find some who, like you said, abhor His sovereignty. Likewise, I can point to Calvinists and there would be those who give all the glory to God, and then there are those who spurn a whole lot of people. You know what I mean?
David,
"But when you start speaking of those who know the issues, have studied the various biblical teachings, rejected the sovereignty of God over their salvation, denied the efficaious call/work of the Spirit, and fully believe their election was based upon some precondition they met that caused God to redeem them, I truly believe you've encounted a different type of person who has rejected the Gospel, as they've come to understand it."
But does this not boil down to the proposition that everyone who has heard of the 5-points of Calvinism and has rejected most, if not all of them, are lost? Indeed, if we place the dividing line at monergism vs. synergism, then the conclusion seems to be that none but professing Calvinists can be viewed as brothers in the faith. This, it seems to me, would also exclude those who are ignorant of Calvinistic distinctives. That is, if it is a requirement of salvation that one accept Calvinism, then those who are ignorant cannot be counted as brothers because this requirement has yet to be met.
Justin says...
"That is, if it is a requirement of salvation that one accept Calvinism, then those who are ignorant cannot be counted as brothers because this requirement has yet to be met."
J. Matthew, this is what I think David is trying to get at. And I would agree, but then that means we would have to be claiming a perfect theology in order to be saved, and I am not ready to claim that. I'll admit that of all theologies out there, Calvinism is the most biblical. But perfectly biblical?
Justin,
"...but then that means we would have to be claiming a perfect theology in order to be saved,..."
James White has an article on his site concerning your observation. Here's the link:
http://aomin.org/HyperCalv.html
"But does this not boil down to the proposition that everyone who has heard of the 5-points of Calvinism and has rejected most, if not all of them, are lost?"
~ No. Having "heard of" the 5 points of Calvinism is not a prerequsite for salvation. When it comes down to it, we cannot know a person's heart. Yet we can know what they profess. And if they are professing that which is unScriptural (Arminiamism) and antithetical to the Gospel, we can and must judge the fruit.
"Indeed, if we place the dividing line at monergism vs. synergism, then the conclusion seems to be that none but professing Calvinists can be viewed as brothers in the faith."
~ There will be many in heaven for whom this was never an issue simply because they were never confronted with it. And many "professing" Calvinist will perish I'm sure. But rather than posing it as who can be called a brother in the Faith, I think we're safer in trying to determine who can't. And one who knowingly denies the doctrines of grace as manifest in God's Word is about as close as we can get to knowing.
"This, it seems to me, would also exclude those who are ignorant of Calvinistic distinctives. That is, if it is a requirement of salvation that one accept Calvinism, then those who are ignorant cannot be counted as brothers because this requirement has yet to be met."
~ I've already addressed this, but in passing I'd again reaffirm, saving faith comes from God. And I'm sure there are many who know the sovereign, saving work of God on their behalf (monergisticly) who have not, nor never will, hear of John Calvin.
But those who have, and have a knowledge of this issue, and an accountability for that knowledge, and rejects it, it is that man whose soul concerns me.
Let me ask you this?
Is Arminianism heresy? Or even heterodoxy? Does it ultimately exalt God or man? Does it point people towards or away from, truth? Why would we ever want to encourage or endose that which stands (even in the very least) at oppostion to God and His sacred truth?
David McCrory
The Reformed Puritan
Justin says...
J. Matthew, thanks for the link. I thought I had read that one before, but it turned out to be a different one, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Justin says...
David, while I would agree with you, I just do not think your argument is biblical.
"Is Arminianism heresy? Or even heterodoxy? Does it ultimately exalt God or man? Does it point people towards or away from, truth? Why would we ever want to encourage or endose that which stands (even in the very least) at oppostion to God and His sacred truth?"
Yes, I will affirm Arminianism is heresy, and I do not know what heterodoxy is. In the end, I feel that yes, it does exalt men above God.
As to whether it points people to or away from truth, it is a matter of context. Arminians and Calvinists both affirm that Christ alone is the way to be saved. We both believe that it is through faith alone. It is just a matter of whether it is by grace alone, or a combo of free-will and grace, that differs us. And, going back to the entire discussion, if perfect theology is to be the prerequisite for salvation, then no one can be saved, for our finite, fallible minds are so easily misled (praise God He is able and willing to break through that!).
I feel you are confusing the issue in your last question. We are not endorsing Arminianism. We fully abhor it and wish it gone from this earth. But, does this mean that Arminians, who affirm salvation in Christ through faith alone, the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, among other doctrines, are to be excluded from Heaven? This isn't to say that I believe it is because we affirm a truth that we are saved. It is because God, in condescending love, decided to save us.
Brother David, I leave you with the Rev. John Newton's words of wisdom.
~~~
"As to your opponent, I wish, that, before you set pen to paper against him, and during the whole time you are preparing your answer, you may commend him by earnest prayer to the Lord's teaching and blessing. This practice will have a direct tendency to conciliate your heart to love and pity him; and such a disposition will have a good influence upon every page you write. . . . [If he is a believer,] in a little while you will meet in heaven; he will then be dearer to you than the nearest friend you have upon earth is to you now. Anticipate that period in your thoughts. . . . [If he is an unconverted person,] he is a more proper object of your compassion than your anger. Alas! 'He knows not what he does.' But you know who has made you to differ."--John Newton
David,
"And if they are professing that which is unScriptural (Arminiamism) and antithetical to the Gospel, we can and must judge the fruit."
But does this not likewise reduce to the notion that *any* unscriptural belief must be rejected as heresy and the person(s) holding to those beliefs as heretics that cannot be accepted as brothers in the faith? If so, then is it even possible in your view that a Christian can hold to an unscriptural belief and still be a true child of God?
And the distinction you make about those who do not reject Calvinism due to ignorance I find a bit odd. That is, you say that it is possible for someone to be truly regenerated yet, be ignorant of, and thereby not reject, biblical soteriology. But what if we apply this reasoning to a different theological arena such as Christology? That is, can a person who is born and raised a Jehovah's Witness be a true Christian as long as they do not reject Christ's deity thru ignorance? If not, why?
And as far as your statements about those who do reject Calvinistic Soteriology, are you in fact saying that someone such as Roy Ingle is not in fact a Christian? If so, would this also include, say, Jerry Falwell? I mention Falwell here because he rejected Calvinism to the very end. Does this fact exclude him as a true Christian in light of your stated criteria?
"Why would we ever want to encourage or endose that which stands (even in the very least) at oppostion to God and His sacred truth?"
The fact that I accept a professing Arminian as a brother in the faith does not mean that I endorse or encourage his views.
To post my own two cents worth, I feel that if Arminians or anyone else are holding to a works based system of salvation than by all means we need to pray for their salvation. No good works can ever obtain salvation (Isaiah 64:6; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7)! James Arminius did not teach that at all although modern evangelicals like to think he did. I would say that most evangelical churches today are semi-Pelagian in their theology and believe that "coming forward" or the "sinner's prayer" saves a person rather than the finished work of Christ (Romans 5:1-11). As Martin Luther said about the Roman Catholics and their good works, "It is not against good works that we contend but faith in them." As an Arminian I must proclaim faith in Christ not in my works or even my decision or my baptism but in Christ alone or else I too am accursed (Galatians 1:8).
Post a Comment